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	<title>Comments on: Songwriting isn&#8217;t lyric writing, even for Bowie</title>
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	<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/</link>
	<description>Ideas and Advice for Songwriters (formerly songwright.co.uk)</description>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-422</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:51:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-422</guid>
		<description>You think it&#039;s incongruous to see people dancing to &#039;Losing my Religion&#039;? I disagree. It has a danceable beat, so is clearly meant to be danced to. The lyrics evoke emotions that, though very personal, are also universal. So it works as a personal listening experience, but also works as a shared listening experience. The lyrics might be deep and none too chirpy, but they&#039;re also cathartic and in that sense uplifting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You think it&#8217;s incongruous to see people dancing to &#8216;Losing my Religion&#8217;? I disagree. It has a danceable beat, so is clearly meant to be danced to. The lyrics evoke emotions that, though very personal, are also universal. So it works as a personal listening experience, but also works as a shared listening experience. The lyrics might be deep and none too chirpy, but they&#8217;re also cathartic and in that sense uplifting.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-421</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 16:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-421</guid>
		<description>Funny actually, lyrics vs melody something that I don&#039;t think about too much. But I&#039;m spoilt as I work with really bright composers, so they come up with memorable melodies and I just stick the right words on. I&#039;m being a bit facetious, but it works like that. Deep down, I don&#039;t underestimate either side of the equation - I could personally never do what they do. But it&#039;s the sum result that counts. 

Michelle, one thing that has often amused me is seeing large crowds of people bopping along to REM&#039;s &quot;Losing my Religion&quot; as if it was a Smurf song. There&#039;s such a disconnect there, it still amazes me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny actually, lyrics vs melody something that I don&#8217;t think about too much. But I&#8217;m spoilt as I work with really bright composers, so they come up with memorable melodies and I just stick the right words on. I&#8217;m being a bit facetious, but it works like that. Deep down, I don&#8217;t underestimate either side of the equation &#8211; I could personally never do what they do. But it&#8217;s the sum result that counts. </p>
<p>Michelle, one thing that has often amused me is seeing large crowds of people bopping along to REM&#8217;s &#8220;Losing my Religion&#8221; as if it was a Smurf song. There&#8217;s such a disconnect there, it still amazes me.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-420</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 11:02:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-420</guid>
		<description>Hi Michelle, thanks for commenting, 

You&#039;re right, plenty of lyrics aren&#039;t meant to be taken literally at all. I&#039;m both a big Bowie fan and a heavy metal fan, which means I hear lots of lyrics which are supposed to be ironic. The method of analysis that Nick Troop is using sounds as if it was originally meant to measure writing that is specifically about oneself, which song lyrics often are not. 

Personally I think the music is far more important than the lyric. I&#039;d put lyrics on a par with specific aspects of the music, melody, harmony, pace and groove.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Michelle, thanks for commenting, </p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, plenty of lyrics aren&#8217;t meant to be taken literally at all. I&#8217;m both a big Bowie fan and a heavy metal fan, which means I hear lots of lyrics which are supposed to be ironic. The method of analysis that Nick Troop is using sounds as if it was originally meant to measure writing that is specifically about oneself, which song lyrics often are not. </p>
<p>Personally I think the music is far more important than the lyric. I&#8217;d put lyrics on a par with specific aspects of the music, melody, harmony, pace and groove.</p>
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		<title>By: banana_the_poet/Michele Brenton</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-419</link>
		<dc:creator>banana_the_poet/Michele Brenton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:31:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-419</guid>
		<description>As you say a song is made up of many interplaying parts - the two main parts being the words and the tune.  I think it is quite possible to have an amazing song with truly awful lyrics, but not the other way around - which suggests that the tune may be more important than the lyrics.

A number of my own songs have very depressing lyrics but are twinned with boppy tunes deliberately as they are meant to be ironic or comic in effect.  The lyrics are the superficial part of the song while the music is the mood, emotion and subliminal suggestor which sneaks under the skin of the listener to either undermine or reinforce the lyrics, depending on what the intention is.

Determining the psychology of a writer from their written work is tricky.  Again you draw attention to the very real possibility that in the hands of a seasoned manipulator the words and the music may not be representative of the actual mental state of the writer at all.  They may simply be exploring concepts in the same way that a novelist is not necessarily an axe murderer because he chooses to write horror novels.

But in extremely detailed analyses of a number of works from the same pen it may be possible to spot recurring threads and tell tales of the psyche - but it would take a lot of material to be able to make any sensible conclusions.

Thank you for a very stimulating article.  I enjoyed reading it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As you say a song is made up of many interplaying parts &#8211; the two main parts being the words and the tune.  I think it is quite possible to have an amazing song with truly awful lyrics, but not the other way around &#8211; which suggests that the tune may be more important than the lyrics.</p>
<p>A number of my own songs have very depressing lyrics but are twinned with boppy tunes deliberately as they are meant to be ironic or comic in effect.  The lyrics are the superficial part of the song while the music is the mood, emotion and subliminal suggestor which sneaks under the skin of the listener to either undermine or reinforce the lyrics, depending on what the intention is.</p>
<p>Determining the psychology of a writer from their written work is tricky.  Again you draw attention to the very real possibility that in the hands of a seasoned manipulator the words and the music may not be representative of the actual mental state of the writer at all.  They may simply be exploring concepts in the same way that a novelist is not necessarily an axe murderer because he chooses to write horror novels.</p>
<p>But in extremely detailed analyses of a number of works from the same pen it may be possible to spot recurring threads and tell tales of the psyche &#8211; but it would take a lot of material to be able to make any sensible conclusions.</p>
<p>Thank you for a very stimulating article.  I enjoyed reading it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-412</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-412</guid>
		<description>I definitely agree with you there, Michael. What matters is that the listener is entertained.

Hmmm I think I&#039;m contradicting myself there, as I&#039;ve also written previously that a good songwriter has to write for themselves. So a better way to put it is that a good songwriter never ignores the audience. You&#039;ll put elements of yourself in there, whether you want to or not. 

Anyway, my main point, and what I don&#039;t think can be said too often, is that lyrics, while important, are not the whole of songwriting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I definitely agree with you there, Michael. What matters is that the listener is entertained.</p>
<p>Hmmm I think I&#8217;m contradicting myself there, as I&#8217;ve also written previously that a good songwriter has to write for themselves. So a better way to put it is that a good songwriter never ignores the audience. You&#8217;ll put elements of yourself in there, whether you want to or not. </p>
<p>Anyway, my main point, and what I don&#8217;t think can be said too often, is that lyrics, while important, are not the whole of songwriting.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.songwright.co.uk/2009/08/25/songwriting-isnt-lyric-writing-even-for-bowie/comment-page-1/#comment-406</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Aug 2009 09:16:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.songwright.co.uk/?p=465#comment-406</guid>
		<description>Wow! You make a good point. I only ever write for others. But I must say that there are always elements of the writer in the song, although I have no idea about how you would go about finding them. It would probably require a biographer and musicologist at the same time. Maybe even a metal detector.

But then I have to ask: so what? Edith Piaf used outside writers extensively and that in no way affects their impact on the listener - and this is what it&#039;s all about. I don&#039;t consider songwriting about me, it&#039;s largely about the listener.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! You make a good point. I only ever write for others. But I must say that there are always elements of the writer in the song, although I have no idea about how you would go about finding them. It would probably require a biographer and musicologist at the same time. Maybe even a metal detector.</p>
<p>But then I have to ask: so what? Edith Piaf used outside writers extensively and that in no way affects their impact on the listener &#8211; and this is what it&#8217;s all about. I don&#8217;t consider songwriting about me, it&#8217;s largely about the listener.</p>
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